Lamentation — Entire book

[Stephan]

Finished the book? You can discuss it all here, filled with spoilers!

[Aldric]

Ok, let's talk.

I enjoyed the book pretty well. But, the sheer amount of (generational) Master Plots and espionage kind of got to me by the end. It seemed somewhat unbelievable how intricate and pervasive it was. Sadly, it also made me not like some of the characters quite as much. It made them seem a touch robotic, having been nudged into their roles by countless amounts of outside manipulation.

Jin Li Tam was a given. She was shaped by her father in various ways to be Awesome and Amazing, but that one wasn't a problem. You could see that as 'just' great education and motivation. It was more problematic to me how (supposedly) both Petronus and Rudolfo were both manipulated, in countless ways, to be the men they are, by Vlad Li Tam's father, and Vlad Li Tam himself, respectively.

I did like the interference-causing side story of the Marsher King. Well, in every way but the prophetic dreams. Her character reminded me a lot of Kitai from Codex Alera by Jim Butcher. Both were from 'barbarian people', and both had a lot hidden under the surface about them.

The postlude gives a glimpse of a hidden 'true enemy'. You find out right before the end that the master-manipulator Vlad Li Tam was being manipulated in turn, or at least society was, in spite of him. More of the same.

I did enjoy the idea in the books that society has to look forward. If you try to rebuild the past you'll end up having many of the same problems that the past did. I'm not sure I really buy that in terms of technology, both magic and science. I would have bought that applied more to how societies are run, but hey, what do I know. Maybe evil technology and horrible magic are impossible for humans to touch without being burned.

[Aldric]

Seeing as it's been a week, I don't think I'll apologize for double-posting.

I wanted to talk about something I did enjoy for the most part -- the world building. Specifically how this was a time after two or three semi-apocalypses, and each age seemed rather different.

There seemed to be a distant time that was likely ours. I most liked the mix of science and magic. The robots were rather nice. I just wish there was more of both. By that, I mean, we got almost no science artifacts other than robots and some similar things like birds. Oh, and a gun that seemed a really crappy version of such. The only two real magics I saw, were of course the 7-whammy that toasted the main city, and the scout-type-magics.

I wish we'd seen more evidence of either. It's an old 'weakness' of mine, that I always liked to see stuff where science and magic were mixed. I'm also typically a fan of there being prior ages or in a post-apocalyptic time. I mean, I realize that the toasted city was were most of the cool tech of either type was kept, but that doesn't mean I still wouldn't have liked to see more.

I always loved the (very scarce, but definitely there) old scientific artifacts in the would built by Fred Saberhagen, in his Books of Swords and other books in that world, like Empire of the East series.

[brando17c]

Hey Aldric, I think I have a lot of similar feelings regarding the book as you. Specifically on my side, it was a bit of a stunner that all of the plot twists and surprises occurred very close to the end of the book. Only at this end did we truly learn what the plan of the Androfrancines really was (protecting the Named lands from outsiders, rather than using the 7-whammy - haha Aldric, I like the name - against the various internal groups). All of a sudden, the book went from being a rather basic story with a questionable future to one that started sparking my interest, at least to the point of wanting to know exactly what will happen on a grand scale in subsequent books.

Haven't taken a look at the next book in the series, but the ending makes me think that the story will shift somewhat from the Named lands to the outside world, with Vlad Li Tam's group, and maybe that dude whose name started with G (the leader of the Pope's guard) being the new main characters. Sorry, when you have a Kindle (and you're lazy), it's somewhat of a pain to go back to earlier points in the book to reference names or events.

In any case, I'm really up in the air about continuing this series. Normally, once I start one, I want to finish it. The main things holding me up here are 1) most of the characters are very static/predictable/boring, 2) the general writing style hasn't fully captured my attention, and 3) the series isn't complete, and I don't want to have to reread to recall past events. If I don't continue it in the future, I will be a bit sad to see what happens with Neb and Issak, but those are really the only ones I care about.

[Aldric]

Hmm, just looked it up. Apparently this is going to be a 5 book series. 3 are already out. I'm thinking I'll wait until all 5 books are out and go read it all at once. I wasn't too impressed overall with this book, but I didn't dislike it, so if I manage to remember to find it again when 5 books are out, I'll read the entire series.

I could mock the way the book tried to turn everything on it's side/head in the very end, displaying new Enemies, because it's kind of cliche. But it still does make me somewhat interested. Surprise twists in the end are overused, but that's because lots of people like them.

[Tondola]

I've finished the book as well.
I must say that rather than the characters, this time I've been intrigued by the overall considerations on religion, perhaps because it's one of the favourite topics of mine.
I quite liked the fact that Scholes only gives a general outline of Andofrancine theory and structure through the characters and there is not much info dumping thoughout the book. It is left somewhat as a shadow...and this also makes it possible to see that there is no real back or white, just various shades of grey that depend on the character's perception.
What if Sethbert had seeked support from others with the piece of intelligence he had on the purpose of the weapon? What if Petronus had never left the Papacy and had been informed about the intention to use it?
As I grow old I seem to be more interested in thing that are not clear cut from the beginning...or even, in things that seem in one way but that the writer is able to turn into something different while keeping it credible.
This is the main reason why I liked the book. It is not a masterpiece, but hey, it's still the first book, so I definitely will look for the other books Scholes will write

[Caitrin]

Almost to the end (should finish it on break today) but a few pages into chapter 25 and I began to wonder (which later gets more support) if Vlad was the real villain (though really, with that name it's almost almost cliche) and that's why Sethbert never really got much support. If he wants to pull that kind of trick on us though I still think he should have made Sethbert more of a three-dimensional character because it would have fooled us better and made the whole work stronger. I'll be back with more thoughts when I finish the book

[Caitrin]

I finally finished!

Mostly it's a big "eh" from me. I didn't hate it but I didn't love it, it was just sort of in the middle. I like the idea of the manipulation but it doesn't really seem possible. It would have seemed more realistic if some things had gone wrong because nothing is guaranteed, the effects you hope to achieve on someone's life may turn out differently. And why exactly did it have to be Rudulfo? Why didn't they kill Rudulfo and keep Isaak alive?

I did like how things turned around in the end, Sethbert was never a good villain and I'm still disappointed in his characterization though he did have a moment or two at the end. I like that there is growth in the series for larger stakes. Often the big problems for us aren't world-shattering and addressing it as being these smaller problems with a lead into something larger was good. However I agree, most of the characters are pretty flat to me. There was little conflict between the good main characters and we weren't given much time to fear for their success as Sethbert seemed to be quickly and easily taken care of and as has been mentioned the battle scenes, if you could call any of them that, were very bland.

I probably will read the sequel at least at some point as I already own it. Not sure I would even consider it if I didn't.

[Stephan]

Finished. The last part was super slow again. I have no idea what to think of the book. I have to think on it a bit, and read all the things you guys have said before me.

In many ways, though, this book felt like one big prelude. There was definitely potential, but there was a huge lack of a good antagonist. It was like pieces being moved on a chessboard, and only in the final postlude did an antagonist show up. Sure, his influence was quite clear in most of the book, I had just wished he'd shown up sooner.

[Stephan]

Ok, time to respond to what you guys have said!

There are two things I really enjoyed about this book. For the first of those, I have to disagree with you guys, Aldric and Brando. You seem to say there were a lot of surprises near the end, and I think Aldric even mentioned this being very much overused. I disagree that these were surprises at all.

If you read my comments throughout the various discussion topic, you'll notice this was actually a main theme for my reading experience. At first, I didn't much notice the element of manipulation yet. Of course, Vlad's pov only comes to play after the first eight chapters. However, I still noticed that, as bad guys go, Sethberth was pretty damn straighforward, and would really be an antagonist to write five books about. As the story continued, Vlad's manipulation became clearer and clearer, yet his manipulation seemed to be focused on the light. As I mentioned somewhere, I was waiting for a secret manipulator for the dark to show. Especially in the last eight chapters, it became quite clear that this manipulator definitely must exist for the story to make any sense at all.

Basically, what I'm saying is this: the entire story of Lamentation seems like it was written towards that last postlude. It is a story of manipulation, both for the light and against it. It is very clear that some external power has to be at play, and the sheer impact of it becomes clearer throughout the book. That, honestly, is something I loved. With the exception of the stupid prophesy surrounding Neb —seriously, the book didn't even need that! Why was that in there?!— the foreshadowing in Lamentation was amazing. I just wish events had happened faster and the main antagonist had come into play sooner.

The second thing I love is something Tondola and Aldric have mentioned as well. For lack of a better word, I would call it the world's philosophy. Lamentation is a very religious story, but this world's religion is very different from that in our world, and especially our history. Just look at the Andofrancines. Sure, they had a small army in their Gray Guard, but they were very much a peaceful religion. Instead of wanting to bring the light, they just wanted to guard it. How different is that to most of our earthly religions? The people of the Named Lands seem to have a very different way of thinking than we do, and somehow it just connected. It made sense. That, if nothing else, proves that Ken Scholes seriously is a talented writer!

[Aldric]

I just called it a surprise twist because that's usually what they're called. It's a pretty common theme in fantasy series to have a problem solved, or a mini-bad guy vanquished, only to find someone worse or more horrible is behind it, and there's really far worse problems coming (in the next book).

I agree with you it wasn't very surprising, that enemy. It was pretty apparent after 5 minutes of knowing Sethbert that he wasn't the brains behind anything. The only question, before we got to know Vlad Li Tam, was whether he was s3kr3tly the evil one. But once it was pretty apparent he wasn't, there had to be some bad guy who was hidden.

I wanted one of two things. Either have the hidden enemy out before the last 3 pages, so there was some hardcore stuff having to do with him. Or make the problems that had to be solved be moreso than what was in the book. Doing stuff about Sethbert was pretty trivial. The book really was just there to introduce us to everybody, and show the evil bad guy for the upcoming books. Oh, and to bury some dead that we have zero emotional attachment to.

It wasn't enough.

[Stephan]

Yeah, I totally agree. It definitely wasn't enough. The entire book felt like one huge prelude, and I think, especially considering the lack of problems you mentioned, the story could have been resolved in a hundred pages rather than four hundred.

I would not have had a problem with shit going down, and the whole thing escalating into a huge epic war between popes, only to find out there is a real enemy gloating somewhere back in the Unnamed World. You know, Song of Ice and Fire stuff.

[jdiddyesquire]

Generally, I think Lamentation falls into a trap a lot of epic fantasy series fall into. It's a 5-book series from day 1. That means there's absolutely no pressure to tell a story that's entirely self contained in the first installment. As a result, while I really enjoyed the character (Neb especially) I never quite became totally invested in the story. I guess my major complaint is that I know I'm going to have to re-read this before I read the sequel (whenever that might be).

However, I think there's a lot of promise here and I do want to read the whole thing. I love the religious angles. Could have done with a little less on the Mary Sue factor in general.

[Stephan]

So, you'll at least read the sequel, then?

[Tondola]

I have indeed ordered the sequel. There are other books presently on the top of my reading pile that will get more attention sooner, but I believe I'll be able to squeeze Canticle in before the end of the year ;o))

I consider this quite a good first book, not everybody can get me really hooked from the first book, and differently from others, this one has managed to keep me somewhat intrigued ;o)

[Stephan]

You should totally rate it here. I'm very curious to see what you're outcome will be! Glad you enjoyed it, though. Will you let us know your thoughts on Canticle?

[Caitrin]

I already have Canticle but I bought books last year that I haven't gotten to yet so who knows when or if I will ever read it. I'm going to have to disagree with you Stephan on the "seriously talented writer" comment. A seriously talented writer wouldn't have most of us going "meh". They would have given us an interesting story in the first book and not make it feel as you said, a prelude. Might as well call this a prequel methinks. A talented writer sure. I think almost any author that manages to get published is a talented writer.

[Stephan]

Ok, ok, I'll settle for just "talented".

[jdiddyesquire]

So, you'll at least read the sequel, then?

Well, I'm a unique reader in that I don't necessarily read books in a vacuum anymore. in a vacuum, ya I'd probably read the sequel. In reality, too many books come in the door for me to read, so who knows?

I think there's a lot of promise in the world he's setting up though. Whether he gets there or not remains to be seen. I'd probably like to read some reviews on the series in its entire before deciding whether to commit to book 2.

[pooks]

I am a horrible book club participant because I have never been able to force myself to read a book that I didn't like. And that said, I was unable to finish this book, despite my best intentions to do so just to accomplish it. I can't even claim I didn't have enough time (my first thought) because during this time I read Kate Elliott's Cold Fire, a book that kept me totally involved even though I didn't have time to soak it all up in a day or two, the way I'd usually do.

But I'll still make some comments. I think Scholes has some good ideas, but doesn't have the skill (yet?) to execute them well. For me, religion is a fascinating subject and I would have truly loved to love this book. Also, the title, Lamentation, implies unspeakable grief to me, and I never felt it. It's what I responded to most in Petronus (his need to bury everyone) and Isaak (his guilt) but I think they were just the most emotional in a frustratingly unemotional lot of characters, which doesn't mean they actually worked all that well. (What does it mean when the must human character isn't the human?)

He had strong world-building, and I do appreciate that he didn't use a lot of info-dump technique to get it across. There was much I could have liked here, but his flat execution and writing style, his backing off of drama (or inability to write it?) just left me in my typical place when it comes to a book I don't like.

Life's too short and my time is too limited to attempt to reign myself in and force myself to focus on a book I find frustrating. There are too many other books out there!

However, I'm glad I tried. And from the one other experience I had in a book club, the most successful books were the ones we disliked most. You can find a lot to say when you don't like something. When everybody loves a book, the discussions are far less interesting!

[Stephan]

Unless everyone likes it, and one person doesn't, of course. Besides, it's great to have people join, even if they didn't manage to finish the book. In that, I'd call this book club a success. I hope the next one will be equally good... But with a book that we'll all love, yet still have lots to say about.

Your one comment in brackets really stood out to me. "What does it mean when the most human character isn't the human?" I guess that's exactly what's wrong with this book. I think this story, just the way it was now, would have worked with more human characters. You know, characters that could actually convey emotion. That would have definitely increased the impact of the destruction of Windwir, turning a so-so book into a page-turner.

Guess it doesn't come as a surprise that we all loved Isaak.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts despite not finishing, btw.

[Aldric]

Your one comment in brackets really stood out to me. "What does it mean when the most human character isn't the human?" I guess that's exactly what's wrong with this book. I think this story, just the way it was now, would have worked with more human characters. You know, characters that could actually convey emotion.

I totally agree with the above, but I want to also add that he didn't make his characters flawed enough. Almost all of them were a bit too perfect. Other than that far too flawed and cliched Sethbert. He had problems in the other direction.

On a different note, for this coming month I'm also totally and utterly going to be waiting until you set up the chapter divisions. And not at all start until then. This past one was like uhhhh, I finished this entire book before you even set up that stuff, and I was like HMM I don't know what did or didn't happen by chapter 8, or 16.

I'm going to post by sections as I finish it, and that's final!

[Stephan]

Yeah, posting as you finish is pretty cool. I loved sharing my thoughts in each of the topics. I'll definitely try to finish the book early as well. I'm hoping to have finished before Alloy of Law and Inheritance come out.