The Short and the Long

[pooks]

Other than the ubiquitous devouring of Tolkein when I was twenty, my experience with fantasy was slim until I picked up Harry Potter and then got led to more contemporary fantasy fare. Now I'm finding much in fantasy to really enjoy and have even made forays into sf, something I really never cared for at all. So in recent years I've been reading a lot of it, although my interests are narrow--I prefer settings that are British, or possibly European, and mostly historical-ish. What can I say? It's what I love to read.

I say that simply to give you a bit of an idea how limited my fantasy history is as context for my question, which is this: Do you think that the current trend in fantasy literature (which seems to be toward shorter books) is a negative one? My understanding is that it's really about economics, and the expense printing huge books which might not sell. The recent economic troubles have only compounded this. Most agents are looking for fantasy novels well under 150K, from what I can tell. And maybe the trend is even influenced by the explosion in YA, which again, is usually well under 100K.

I'm listening to The Wise Man's Fear and I think it took me awhile to adjust (during the first book) to the slow building pace. Not that I found it boring or tedious, for it was actually fascinating. But my writer's mind kept leaping ahead, trying to find meaning, trying to find the story's trajectory. I eventually just settled into the story and am now simply soaking it in with pleasure.

But isn't this what we're losing when we read shorter books? I admit I have a vested interest in this because I'm currently marketing a 200K novel that is the first in a fantasy trilogy, and facing the hard realities of the marketplace.

But as readers, is one of the reasons that Rothfuss's books are so well-loved because they are what has become a rarity in the current marketplace--truly long books with depth and detail?

Or am I all wet?

[Michael]

I love epic fantasy, which is rarely short. At the same time I want to read alot of authors and sample their different styles, so a shorter book makes me kind of sigh in relief (especially if it's a debut - 300k + is a big time commitment if you have no certainty about the quality). I'll read a massive tome happily if I'm confident of enjoying it (like The Way of Kings, or The Wise Man's Fear), but because my situation has changed and time is increasingly more valuable, if I had to choose between two debuts, having heard similar level of buzz for both, I would probably grab the shorter one. I'm probably not alone.

It was pretty funny to see Sanderson and Rothfuss jokingly comparing the lengths of their most recent stories (both around the 350k mark) as if to say 'Look what the publisher let me get away with.'

I'm getting off-topic now. Anyway...

To an extent these guys are providing more value for their fans. People complain about authors milking a series, but I don't think anyone can complain about an author providing longer installments that don't artificially bloat the length of the series. John Scalzi did an interesting comparison on his blog, which pretty much showed that upon the release of A Dance with Dragons George R. R. Martin had essentially published the same number of words in the last 5 or 6 years, and made alot less money per word because it was all sold as one book.

[myyrdneopia]

Linked for those interested:

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2011/07/17/a-small-observation-regarding-words-and-releases/

[pooks]

Thanks for the link, myyrdneopia.

Michael, I've certainly had other writers tell me I should be writing several short novels instead of one long. I even have a steampunk series on the backburner so I can do just that. However, the muse is only feeding me the epic fantasy so I'm kind of in a pickle.

You make a good point about time constraints, and about choosing a shorter book if it's an unknown author. In which case, maybe the publishers are making the smart move, after all, and it's not an artificial change based on expense rather than on what the readership would prefer. That certainly puts it in a different light.

When I look for audiobooks, I look for long ones. When I look for novels to read... hmmm. I'm not sure I always know. I have been reading mostly ebooks and I may or may not have any idea of length when I buy them, other than my expectations re: the genre.

[Rebecca]

I love epic fantasy and big long books. While I won't reject a book for being too short, I personally am more likely to grab a longer book, all other factors being equal.

[pooks]

I'm getting to the end of The Wise Man's Fears. Oh dears, what to read next while waiting for book three?

[myyrdneopia]

...do you really, REALLY want to ask that question? I mean, REALLY?

[pooks]

I can't think of a better place to ask it! (Though maybe a better thread.) But--got any recs for Alternate History-ish Fantasy UK?

[myyrdneopia]

Temeraire series by Naomi Novik. Napoleonic War with dragons. Book one is HIS MAJESTY'S DRAGON.

I also recommend The King Raven trilogy (HOOD, SCARLET, and TUCK). It's the most engaging and fascinating take on the story of Robin Hood that I've ever read.

And if you ever want anything out of that historical fiction/European setting, let me know.

[pooks]

I'm already a Temeraire freak. But King Raven is new to me. Thanks. I am very much an Anglophile and read very little that isn't that setting, or European. I really don't read contemporary American settings. I have no explanation, except that this is the direction I've gone in for many years, w/o even noticing. One day I realized I hadn't seen a single new movie in a theater in years that wasn't a British film. So, there it is. Me.

[myyrdneopia]

Well, I'd also recommend the Peter Grant books by Ben Aaronovitch. Urban fantasy, but set in England. First one is RIVERS OF LONDON. Also would recommend Simon R. Green's Secret Histories series (again, a UF, set primarily in England), and the first book of those is THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN TORC.

[pooks]

Okay, you're speaking my language. Thank you!!!

[Elspeth Cooper]

What about Mark Chadbourn's Sword of Albion series?

[myyrdneopia]

YES. I have those on my shelf but haven't started them yet, so they slipped my mind completely!

[Aldric]

I think there's plenty of very large books being published. They just tend to be more often authors that aren't utterly new. Publishers seem to prefer if an author has made a name first before putting out gargantuan tomes, so they have some likelihood that it will sell.

I will definitely read a book of any length, but if the book was published in the last decade, and is less than 300 pages, or at least 500-600 for epic fantasy, I do feel a bit shortchanged. Older books it's totally different. For the fast majority of books more than 30 years old, it was just the common thing of the day to have far shorter books than we have now.

I'm trying out a lot of Philip K. Dick at the moment, and every single one I've seen so far is 200-250. It was just what one did in those days. Same with all the Foundation and Robot stuff by Asimov.

YA is of course usually shorter, but I only read a YA book if it was given a hugely glowing review by someone whose taste I trust. I find YA books, in general, to be kind of neutered or somewhat more simplistic. Granted, I know a hell of a lot of people who read here disagree, but there it is.

[Stephan]

I can't believe I haven't replied to this topic yet! Personally, I've always prefered either big books or series. Even before I got into fantasy, I tried to only read those (which was actually quite hard in my sappy christian novels-period). The reason is simple: I tend to get absorbed into what I read, watch or hear. If something is good, I don't want it to end.

Still, I'm with Michael as well. I'm a pretty slow reader, so one 300k+ volume can take as long as a month. I don't want to read only one book a month! So, lately, I have tried to find a balance between shorter and longer books.

[Michael]

Case in point... I still haven't read The Wise Man's Fear. I mean I will, because I am confident it will be good, but event still. I did listen to The Way of Kings on audiobook (45 hours) but even going into that I was thinking, 'Wow that's a few weeks of my listening entertainment there.'

[Aldric]

Heh, I don't get intimidated by size as much, probably because I have more leisure time than most. I do get intimidated by unfinished series, especially when an author hasn't completed many works. I haven't read any of Rothfuss's stuff because of that. I'm waiting for him to finish his first trilogy before I read him.

[Rebecca]

Size doesn't intimidate me either, probably because I can read fast enough that it isn't a problem.

[Stephan]

That's what she said.

I agree with Aldric, but... I usually get intimidated by big series. Erikson or Scholes, for example. I really want to read their series, but it's just so big! I'd rather start new series, so I only have to read one book every couple of years.

[Aldric]

*Grumble* Erikson. I read the first two books, and while I didn't think it was BAD, I found it very hard to get into. It jumps around very randomly. I don't know if I'll ever read the rest or not.

[Stephan]

I hear it gets better by book three.

[Devonin]

That's what she said.

I agree with Aldric, but... I usually get intimidated by big series. Erikson or Scholes, for example. I really want to read their series, but it's just so big! I'd rather start new series, so I only have to read one book every couple of years.

I hate starting series that aren't finished yet. Lousy authors dying before they get the last books done!

[Stephan]

I have created a new topic for the Sanderson/WoT discussion.

To continue this discussion... I haven't had many authors die on me before finishing their works. Have you experienced this with series other than The Wheel of Time? Honestly, authors dying before they finish the series isn't what bothers me.

As long as their books are published in timely fashion, that is. While I am very curious to see if I like A Song of Ice and Fire a second time around, I am scared to start reading it. I don't think I can wait five years between books.

http://www.foxtrot.com/2011/08/08142011/

[Devonin]

Did you read the article myyrdneopia linked up near the top of the page? The one where another author writes about the release dates on ASoIaF?

It may be a long time between books, but in a pages:time ratio, he's among the most prolific fantasy authors publishing today. Would you rather he be splitting the books up into 250-300 page installments that come out every year? I'd prefer the long wait (And it's long enough to justify a re-read for each new book) and only needing to buy/own/store 5 or 6 books than frequently be buying a small volume that makes this into a 30 book series.

[Stephan]

I'd much prefer releases like Peter V. Brett's (similar size, two years apart), Rothfuss's (same size, three years apart), or Sanderson's (same size, one year apart). Or perhaps Deas, who publishes two 350-page books every year.

[pooks]

I hear it gets better by book three.

I have no patience any more. That kind of rec makes me reach for something else to read. Kind of like when I was told I simply had to watch Buffy, and don't worry, the first year wasn't great but once you get past that...

'Scuse me? How many hours of "not great" Buffy am I supposed to watch before I get to the good stuff?

Yeah, patience. Not my gift.

myyrdneopia, I'm about to download the audiobook, The Man With the Golden Torc. Thanks for the rec!

And as for long books... sigh. I'm about to dive into my 200,000 word Book One of a trilogy and see how much I can cut. Cover my back. It's gonna be bloody.

[Stephan]

Haha! I'm expecting a red cover now!

[pooks]

The way I motivated myself to do the first set of edits (in which I cut 25,000 words to get it down to 200K) was to buy myself a very shiny black fountain pen (that I named Snape) and find red ink that was the closest to blood-color. I then commenced to bleed all over the manuscript, using Snape as my inspiration.

I just refilled that pen yesterday.

~flexes fingers~

[pooks]

Well, I'd also recommend the Peter Grant books by Ben Aaronovitch. Urban fantasy, but set in England. First one is RIVERS OF LONDON. Also would recommend Simon R. Green's Secret Histories series (again, a UF, set primarily in England), and the first book of those is THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN TORC.

I'm nearing the end of Daemons are Forever and am even more impressed with this author and series.

I have what might be a spoiler question so I'll mark it that way. All I want is a yes or no. I don't want to be spoiled if there is a complex answer.

In Man With The Golden Torc, when Edwin goes back home at the end and the family is trying to stop him from getting to the heart, one group that confronts him are (in his pov) obviously not trained for this, probably household staff, but one particular young man steps forward and is brave in his (futile) attempt to stop Edwin, ready to take him on even though he knows it's useless. As Edwin makes it past them he praises them all, tells them that no matter what happens he wants them to know he's proud of them.

That young guy--is that just a throwaway, or does he show up again? In that moment I loved him so much, and loved Edwin for how he handled them, and thought, "We're going to see him again." In book two, we haven't. So... does he show up?

Yes or no is all I need. Thanks!

[myyrdneopia]

Well, I made it about halfway through book 2 and had to stop, as it wasn't keeping my attention, and school was starting last year, sooo.... I can't give you a yes or no answer. I don't know.

Personally, Green's style of writing is a bit dry for my tastes. I love the story and the premise, but his writing style... dunno. It's not /bad/, it's just not my favorite.

[pooks]

I'm listening to it on audio and the reader is very lively. I guess that makes up for it.

[Caitrin]

To me? It doesn't matter either way. I used to really seek out not only long books but long series, for the same reason as Stephan mentioned, I didn't want the experience to end. Nowadays I have a To-Read list a mile long and growing as more and more books are published month to month. The length doesn't matter as much as the content, how interested I am in the story, if I've read previous novels, if I've read the author previously and how I felt about their novels or what's at hand. Genre is more likely to make me pause than length, for example I would choose a fantasy or urban/contemporary fantasy than I would any brand of science fiction, suspense/thriller or mystery. I do zip through UF novels though not only because they are shorter but because they read easier, my brain doesn't have to follow as much and it can zip along the storyline easily.

[Aldric]

I like the occasional stand alone, but I tend to prefer series. My absolute favorite thing in the world is to find a FINISHED series, preferably one that people liked or rate highly. I'm so tired of starting new series, and having to wait years for sequels, and even just the remembering all the endless series I've started, which in and of itself is very hard for me. (Probably harder than it is for most of you, since I do about all my reading from the library, and thus don't have book 1 on the shelf to remind me)

The longer the better, in general, for me, but I don't care TOO much. Short awesome books are still awesome.

I kind of spewed through 12+ books in the past 2-3 weeks because they were all 300-450 pages max length. I finished that whole Runelords series of 8 books, the new Dresden Files book, which still was only 450 pages or so. Then Good Omens, Maze Runner, and The Steel Remains by Richard Morgan. The max length of any of those were 450, and lots were closer to 300. It feels weird to finish that many books that fast, heh.

[Caitrin]

I don't use my bookshelf to remind me either. I use Goodreads to keep track of all of my reading and I read blogs or google if I want to find out if or when other books are coming out. I don't mind not finishing because there is always loads of other stuff for me to read so I rarely experience frustration at not being able to continue to the next book.

[Aldric]

I _NOW_ use goodreads to keep track of all my reading. I never heard of it before a year ago or so, on Adon. In the prior 20 years of reading, keeping track of stuff has been more problematic.

I actually don't care about the wait for new books in terms of frustration, I care about the fact that I've forgotten 9/10ths of the details by the time that either the sequel comes out, or I realize it has come out, and i read it. As you say, there's always 5 billion other books to read in the meantime, but those books and the time itself makes me half clueless about the prior books.

Anyway, that's the biggest reason I like finished series. Along with it just being more fun to read all in a row.

Maybe my memory is just very very subpar.

[Caitrin]

I don't think so, mine does the same. It depends on how much I want to read the new release, whether I go back and reread the previous. Sometimes the new releases languish on my shelf until I decide I want to take the time to do a reread and that the reread won't bore me too much. I forget a lot of things too but sometimes the familiarity can still make for a boring read which is why I usually only reread big in depth books like the Wheel of Time and ASOIAF.

I set up a few bookshelves on Goodreads based on year read. I kept a few lists on my blog before I found Goodreads so I spent the time putting books Goodreads shelves labeled by year when I knew the year. For everything previous to..2009? I put in one shelf together as I remembered if I'd read the book or not. There's nothing I can do about those though so I tend to not worry about it. If I read a book and didn't remember reading it then there isn't much use in saying I read it. If I have to guess I don't usually add it.

[Aldric]

I think I might reread more than you do. I usually don't mind if I remember a reasonable amount. Presumably I'm only rereading books I really like a lot, heh.

Maybe I'll have to start organizing my shelves better on goodreads. Do you put all (unfinished) series books in a shelf, so as to know that you should be watching for a sequel? Or some other method of doing that?

When I first joined goodreads I tried to think of all the books I'd ever read. Yeah, that worked really well, NOT. Anyway, I tried for a while to fill in a lot of stuff, and eventually just kind of gave up. I just use goodreads as a record of "from now on", mostly.

[Caitrin]

Me too! And if I run across something I know I've read. I actually don't have a method for series other than I once spent about 1 -2 weeks going through my to-read list on Goodreads and separating it up into more manageable chunks. For example I have a to-read-fantasy shelf which includes all stand-alone's and first books of a series and then I have a to-read-fantasy-sequels shelf where I add everything that is part of the series of books I added in the first shelf. I just add sequels as I go along. I also have a shelf for re-reads because I like knowing when I've read a book more than once.

However it would be very possible and easy to add an additional shelf that was something like look-for-sequels and put every first book in a series I read and enjoyed and thus would like to continue. Then periodically I could go through it and add the sequels in the way I talked about. Whenever a book series is finished I could just take that book off of that shelf and voila. Goodreads is pretty good about adding books as soon as they're announced, they even have some users do it.

[Aldric]

Heh, I can totally believe you decided to sub-categorize your to-read list. I think yours is over a thousand books or something huge. The reread shelf seems kind of useful. The main reason I haven't done the unfinished-series-shelf, which I thought about doing, is because then you have to remember to go through the shelf and remove any book where you've read a sequel to it. It isn't a flag you can remove directly by rating the sequel you read, if you know what I mean.

I agree that goodreads seems great about always having every book existing up, and even tons that are announced. Very nice site.

[pooks]

I think we need a goodreads thread. And a way to exchange goodreads links.

I'm here, for what it's worth:

http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/82 ... _Burroughs

And I get most of my fantasy book recs from ranting dragon forums, so would love to be able to follow what everybody reads over there, too.

The majority of the books I listed came off my Kindle or from audible, because it was easy to grab those titles. Then others came off my bookshelves. No way I'd ever remember all the books I've read, of course, but I do like seeing them grow, and finding people with similar likes in books.

[Caitrin]

http://www.goodreads.com/literarydependent

Here's me! Just let me know who you are ^^

[Aldric]

Should probably start a new thread specifically about trading goodreads IDs, but I'm too lazy.

http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/3577976-aaron-anderson

[myyrdneopia]

Subsequent goodreads thread started here!